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I had a high idle problem for a little while, and my buddy helped me out and noticed someone had put a little section of vaccum hose over that little metal stopper for the throttle cable.   

Now it idles fine, but throws a P0304 cylinder #4 misfire and idles kind of rough.  any common solutions to this?  I don't get how it was not showing misfire while idling high but it shows now...??

Chris

Check your plug and wire on the 4 cylinder.  If that's fine put some injector cleaner in your tank, run it.  Maybe a fuel injector problem.  Reset your computer and see what happens.

computer reset won't work, and I already ran some of the NAPA pass DEQ/hardcore injector cleaner stuff through it.


you can only feel it miss at idle if that helps, I swear it feels just like it did before it threw the code once you get going.


already tried swapping to a different set of wires so I will see what is going on with the #4 plug and post results,

Thanks,

Chris

they looked fine, i put a new set in and it did nothing....

when that happened to me, I replaced the plugs, and looked for any vacum leaks, that worked for me. Try that? Mine needed an entire tune up, because of the misfire.

Checked compression to see if anything serious was wrong and because I was curious:

Cyl 1    175
Cyl 2    175
Cyl 3    173
Cyl 4    175

So does this mean all is well and it is some electrical gremlin causing my misfire?

Chris

You said you swapped the wires, but what about the plug?  Otherwise it's probably a sensor, or your (eeeek) ECU

It has new plugs, wires, IAC valve, valve cover gasket, throttle body gasket.

I'm gonna try a new coil-pack..

Also, what is the thing on the right front side of the valve cover?  seems like a sensor that has oil pass through it?  It looks like its leaking right there... is this my problem possibly?

Chris

Its your cam position sensor, and yes it could be a problem.

Cool, and I guess oil does not pass through it lol.  It just got leaked all over until I got the valve cover gasket changed.

So I took it off and cleaned it up as best I could but the male connector that plugs into it is also covered in oil... I'm not an expert but my cam sensor is not getting good readings because of this, correct?

I doubt my ECU is broken, its just kind of weird how it did not detect a misfire until I fixed the high idle.

Thanks for replying to all of my posts Darktegu  ;D

Chris

I like to help, and like it more to find out what's wrong.  It's possible that the oil was messing with it, but not real likely.  Yeah it's possible that the owner before you put that vacuum hose on there because of the misfire.  How high were you idling at?

I'm going to guess about three grand... that's my final answer.

Yeah that's no good.  A shotgun slug is a good fix for just about anything though.  I guess we'll see how it works when you get the Cam position sensor cleaned up.

Idled between 1,300 and 2,000 (real erratic)

I took the section of vaccum hose off the stopper for the throttle and now its real steady 900-1000

Cleaned the CAM sensor but it didn't make a difference, maybe because the connector for it is still covered in oil?

Chris

if you have an air compressor, shoot some air in there and try and blow out all of the oil.  If you don't take it to a shop and ask them to blow it out.

My #4 plug gets white on the tip after running the car for about an hour....?

I think the cam sensor is fine... if it wasn't, it would throw its own code wouldn't it?   not cyl#4 misfire?


coilpack in the mail.....


Chris

Hopefully the coilpack works.  Keep me updated  ;D

it wasn't the coilpack.

dodge dealership can't even figure it out...     they are keeping it until monday now.      :(

BAH!!!   >:(

Sorry man its irritating me too trust me.

5/8 of the monitors that show on an OBD2 code reader are not functioning on my car either!!!

misfire monitor, fuel monitor, and comprehensive component monitor are the only 3 functioning.

Ok, I have been reading through this post and have some more questions... however that last post makes me wonder...
ok first question, what year is your car??  I assume its the 2.0...  I was reading through all the TSB's and most of them relate to carbon tracking on the plugs or just replacement of them with a different plug... that was only for the 95-96 model years though.  I believe that in 96 they had a recall on the PCM because the OBDII would reset after every key off cycle and wipe out any codes that it had stored up.  I had this problem with my 96 when I bought it and it would not pass emmisions because it never had a ready status. 

I hope this helps and good luck.

Oh yeah one last thing. When you say that the end of the plug had white on it, is it just normal plug carbon buildup white or is it oil fouled white??

Thats exactly what the dealership said my car is doing.  It's a 96.

They said "its not storing any fault codes"  but they can still get cylinder #4 misfire when they plug into it....?

And I'm not sure what kind of white, I just know that plug #4 should not turn white on the tip after 1 hour of use and the other plugs do not.


Chris

Chris

Not looking to hijack your thread but I'm having a misfire problem that might be the same as yours. I've been chasing this for months. Maybe some of this can help us figure this out.

This might be kind of long...

I have a '96 with auto trans. The ECU will give me a flashing CEL but only when the car is in park. Once the car is in gear  the CEL will eventually stop flashing. It will also stop flashing if I turn on the AC and get the condenser fan to start.

My current theory  ;D is that this might be fuel or injector related. On a fluke I noticed that the CEL will not flash if the gas tank is almost empty. I try not to let it run too low so I didn't notice it at first. Once I put more that a quarter of a tank in, the flashing CEL will come back.

I've read a lot of threads on other forums and looked at some service manuals to get an idea of how the fuel system works. If I have a leaking or stuck open injector the fuel may be bogging down that cylinder. When the tank is almost empty the fuel pressure at the rail may drop off slightly since the pump has to work harder. I geuss that shouldn't happen if the regulator is working right. When it goes down slightly, the engine can handle the air/fuel mix at idle. If the pressure goes up there is more fuel being put out by the bad injector especially in between spark firing cycles.

That could be why turning on the AC works temporally. The ECU opens the idle control valve to compensate for increased engine load from the condenser fan. The increased air and load helps to burn off the extra fuel in the cyl. When the car is moving the extra fuel can be burned without too much trouble.

Does any of this make any sense or am I completely off base about how the fuel system works?

I'm a little cautious in changing anyting else or buying a fuel pressure gauge since I've done that with no luck.

Chris have you noticed anything different with your fuel system?

I've changed, upgraded, or cleaned a bunch of things (plugs, wires, coil - also MSD, idle control motor, MAP, coolant temp sensor, throttle plate, etc...). Every time I reset the ECU, eventually it will come back to cyl. #4.

I thought about the ECU being a problem but it seems that that would cause a more random problem and not constantly come back only to the same cyl.

alright here is what I got.

is it more like

A:
(http://www.centuryperformance.com/images/tech/Plgnorm1_small.jpg)

B:
(http://www.centuryperformance.com/images/tech/Plgashd1_small.jpg)

C:
(http://www.centuryperformance.com/images/tech/Plgcrbn1_small.jpg)

that might help us diagnose better...

Looks like A but the whole tip turns white like that.

I think it is the cars ECU.

Chris

A would be normal... odd that it would just be on the one plug however... hmmm
hmmm I say...

Dealership says:



#4 fuel injector.




Will let you know if it resolves all of the problems or just the misfire...

If it doesn't I just bought a semiauto shotgun we can test.  :D

I blame Darktengu :(

LOL yes it was me.  In an attempt to have the most posts ever on the board.  I ruin peoples cars so I can post what MIGHT be wrong with them!! LOL

I knew it.  You stay away from my car.  You... you and and your shotgun.

LOL

just kiddin darktengu :)



They got my cylinder #4 misfire to go away, and my oxygen heater sensor to come back, but I still have 4/8 monitors failing as follows:


catalyst monitor   (buy new cat?)
EV evaporative system monitor (?)
oxygen sensor monitor (new rear o2 sensor? i already replaced front)
E  Exhaust Gas Recirculation monitor (clean or new egr valve?)

Are my solutions in parenthisis right?

Thanks a bunch guys and any help on what to do about the EV evaporative system would be greatly appreciated.

Chris

Yes on all your guesses, at least that's what I would do.  Except for your EGR.  EGRs are a pain.  They are no good for your engine or horsepower.  It's an emissions thing.  All it does is put HOT exhaust gases back into your intake.  If you don't have to worry about emissions (like me  ;D ) I'd just leave that one.  As for your EVAP let me do some research on that one.

New solution.  Take your positive and negative battery terminals and...




switch them.

Problem solved.  Have a nice day.

ok Nah, just kidding.  Glad to hear that things are starting to go the right direction.  Unfortunatly DEQ will pitch a fit about the EGR thing so you will most likely have to get it fixed.  That or move to Insesticada.   ;D

ok wel as far as your evap sensor goes there could be so many problems worng.....are you a tech kinda guy...i will try to explain it to you if you arent.....i'm not very good at explaining so someone mayb correct me but your computer till only run the evap "test" when all the conditions are right.....by condidtions i mean engine  rpms engine temp things like that but they all have to be within a certain range and whatnot.....well the problem with that is it is very hard to narrow down the problems when you cant run the test...right?.....ok as far as solutions the evap is connected into so many different causes.....i know probably the EASIEST to fix would be next time you go to the gas pump make sure you turn you gas cap ALL THE WAY UNTIL IT CLICKS AT LEAST 3 TIMES......the check engine light WILL come on if you donnt......hopefully that is all your probelm.....other problems could be a leak somewhere in the system.....me personally i have seen the fuel bypass valve to rgulate how much pressure the injectors are getting (so much pressure it dumps and recirculates to the gas tank) i have seen them stick open and stick closed both before also the charcoal canister might be plugged etc etc etc....the are so hard to pinpoint....i know a guy that has taken a 2 year course on the stupid evap system and still has barely skimmed the surface......but i hope that helps you and if it doesnt hit me up a PM or on AIM soemtime i will try to describe a little bit more in detail....

i was thinking also that with the o2 sensor and that catalyist moniter....( i am not quite sure what they mean by that b/c i have always heard of the furthest o2 senor after the cat being the one that moniters that however am not positive)......i have seem these caps you can get that just go right over the sensor wires that emulate normal readings on your o2 sensors....they seem to work pretty well especially with aftermarket exhaust where some people  ;) might take tht cat off to get more HP they are farely inexpensive and are very easy to install.....hope that helps

misfire is back :(

This is down right going to cause me to force death on people.
Alright things that you have checked/replaced

Plugs
Plug wires
Coilpack
O2 Sensors (both)
CPS
Fuel Injector
Timing

Did I miss anything?  If I listed something that hasn't been replaced/checked that would be the next one to do.

After reviewing this post I feel that this is the only solution.

http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=33

Just drop this in your gas tank and all your problems will be solved.

ok but really, this is starting to get annoying.

I still need to replace the rear o2 sensor and add a new catalytic converter to that list.


Chris

I thought timing was not able to be checked or changed on these 420a's?

I will tell you this, it sounds/feels like its timed great, and feels as fast leaning towards faster than the v6 auto venge I used to have.

The new cat converter made it run ALOT better but my catalytic monitor did not come back on (maybe because the rear o2 still needs replacing?)

Chris

The timing belt can slip, which means it has to be fixed.  There's no simple way to change the timing.  But as for the o2, I guess get that replaced and we'll see what happens.

When I lost my timing components at 70mph  >:(   (not a good scenario there) the shop that put my stuff back together had it off half a tooth and it seemed to have plenty of power but idled really really wierd.  Kinda made it sound like it had an RV cam or something.  Anyway, it is possible to have it skip a tooth or be off a bit if it isn't put together just right.


For the record, when you have your timing belt done, replace everything.  My idler pulleys for the timing belt froze up and grenaded, taking out everything related to timing components on my Venge.  Fortunatly I felt it lurch and popped it out of gear and coasted and didn't bend any valves.

Nykon is LUCKY

You have no idea.  I was sooo freaked out by that.  I was sooo happy when the shop called me and told me that everything was good and nothing was bent.  They told me what happened is when the idlers grenaded (yes as in went plooey all over the place, I still have the parts to them) that the belt probably skipped and the computer shut everything down and since I put it neutral instantly pistons and valves didn't give each other high fives.

I don't think that I have ever been so lucky and I tell you, whenever I get a t-belt replaced, EVERYTHING gets replaced.

anyway back to the topic at hand...

New list:

new catalytic converter
new Plugs
new Plug wires
new Coilpack
new O2 Sensors (both)
checked CPS looks/seems fine...?
Fuel Injectors (still bad.......?)
removed/cleaned EGR valve

still not functioning:  o2 sensor monitor, catalyst monitor, EGR monitor, and EVAP monitor    <- MAIN agenda, since I already know the #4 misfire was injector and these are still unknowns...

I'm supposed to stop driving the car on Monday as my last trip permit expires... sigh


Chris

Hate to say ECU, but ECU?

Grr DarkTengu Stop posting before me.  Every time I go to post today it says you posted before me hehe.

I agree, I think that is what you are down to. 

If you come see me tomorrow at work I can get the OEM number off of it and see if I can get you a good deal on one so you don't have to do the dealer or wrecking yard option.  I am at the new NAPA on McLoughlin across from Burger King, next to El Tapatio.

I will be here tomorrow 8-5 and Sunday 9-5 and tonight till 7.  Oh yeah, my real name is Richard.

Wow Nykon thats like 10 mins from my house I will definately come see you tommorow.


Chris

Ok, I think I found something here. I was browsing through the TSB's again and found this one

<copied section>
NOTE: This bulletin applies to vehicles equipped with a 2.0L DOHC (non turbo) engine built prior to February 15, 1996 MDH (02-15-XX). 


SYMPTOM/CONDITION
Idle speed flares/undershoots/instability/roughness/stall during warm up.
RPM undershoot after declutch (MTX).
A/C engagement RPM flare or surge while rolling at low speed or stopped with light brake application. Vehicle bobble (MTX).
False Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) illumination with Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC's) "DOWNSTREAM 02 SENSOR STAYS AT CENTER", "EGR SYSTEM FAILURE", "CYLINDER XX MIS-FIRE".
<end copied section>


Plus you said that the misfire is back even after the injector.

And here is the solution.

<copied section>
REPAIR PROCEDURE
This repair involves selectively erasing and reprogramming the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) with new software (calibration changes) for all conditions listed.

FLASH PROGRAMMING (ALL SYMPTOMS)
Connect the MDS (Mopar Diagnostic System) and DRB III (Scan Tool) to the vehicle and power them up.
Use the arrow keys and select #2 MDS DIAGNOSTICS on the DRB III MAIN MENU Screen.
Use the arrow keys and select DIAGNOSTIC MENU on the MDS, then press NEXT MENU.
Use the arrow keys and select CONTROLLER PROGRAMMING on the MDS, then press NEXT MENU.
Use the arrow keys and select PROGRAM VEHICLE CONTROLLER on the MDS, then press NEXT MENU.
Follow the steps presented on the MDS and DRB III which will allow the DRB III to obtain the current part number of the PCM.
The MDS will display the part number of the PCM on the vehicle and the appropriate replacement part number, then press NEXT MENU to begin programming.
If the PCM on the vehicle has already been updated or programmed, a NO UPDATES AVAILABLE message will be displayed. Check the part number of the PCM on the vehicle and compare it to the part number displayed. If the PCM has already been updated, then another condition exists that will require further diagnosis and repair.

The MDS and DRB III will prompt for any operator action needed during the remainder of the programming process.
NOTE: The following steps are required by law. 


Type the necessary information on the "Authorized Software Update Label" P/N 4669020 shown in Fig. 1 . Attach the label to the PCM and cover the label with the clear plastic overlay.
Type the necessary information on the "Authorized Modification Label" shown in Fig. 2 , and attach the label near the VECI Label.
<end copied section>

hopefully that will solve the problem and not the entire ECU.  Even if you get the new ECU you will have to take it to Dodge and get it flashed with the software.

Also I am sorry I didn't find this sooner but TSB's are something I can only take in small doses.  I printed it out if you want to get a copy to take to the dealership and ask them why they didn't try it.

anyway, back to work or whatever it is I call what I do here.

Thanks for your help Rich.

I know my venge may *look* like excrement but has run VERY VERY well since the day I got it (no oil on the dipstick and all!!!)



Passing DEQ = first priority

Secondary priorities =   PAINT, upper passenger ball joint, driver tie rod, alignment, and that big engine mount on the passenger side :P

THEN it will be a nice car :D


Chris

Darktengu I just noticed I never answered you in my "common problems to look for" post.


The noise/vibration stopped, the clutch grabs EXCELLENT!!  I even tried WOT in 5th gear @ 45-50 MPH and it grabs.

One less thing on my list above :)



Chris

I'm glad at least one thing on your car isn't broken!  :D  Hopefully you'll be able to get a bunch of that stuff fixed before summers end.

Thanks man, I hope so.


I already have some black wheels picked out for it (car is black) that are unfortunately at the bottom of my list.  Hopefully it will be as nice looking as yours someday.

Chris

Thanks!  You should post up a pic of the rims you want.

Totally, I was meaning to ask if this offset will work:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/18-HP-HPR5-wheels-5x114-3-Mazda-3-6-Protege5-Nissan_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ43958QQitemZ8041116174QQrdZ1

Those look REAL nice and yes they should fit.  This site is good for checking offsets

http://www.discountedwheelwarehouse.com/Dodge___Vehicle_Bolt_Pattern_Reference.cfm

I like them too because they are real similar to the Konig Villians (they do not make anymore) that I had on my old venge.


Chris

OK, just an update.  The computer came in today and it had been opened, the shrink seal on it was torn up and it was the wrong one.  Our computer listed some crazy thing that lookied like it was off of a Ford or something....    >:(
So... after talking to Chris some more I think we figured out that we are calling Shenanigans on the dealership and sending him somewhere to have them check out the computer and see if they actually took care of the TSB and reflashed his computer like they said they did.  I find it interesting that they didn't put it on an invoice for them so I am calling BS!

We will keep you updated on the status of everything.

I have a semi-automatic shotgun, and a couple of pistols.  I'm just saying........  ;D

ROFL darktengu get away from my car with those!!


Chris

I am thinking he was talking about the dealership, not your car... but if it comes down to it...  ;D

Either or

Nykon... I'm sure you have seen the ditsy blonde in the service department @ ron tonkin.   She is my ex.  Did I mention she is ditsy?  And blonde?

She said they did nothing to my ECM because no updates were available.




I find that hard to believe,  I think I am the 4th owner of the car including the Towyard that auctioned it off.


I believe the first owner was ignorant/misinformed because the car was collapsed on itself due to lower ball joint failure at Speed's towing. (2nd owner)
The 3rd owner bought it from the towyard and fixed the bare neccesity of things to bring it off the ground and get it driving again (I had to get the lower ball joints replaced under recall)

I don't think the first owner knew about the recall on the balljoints, or they would not have donated it / abandoned it.  If they did not know about a recall, they certainly didn't know about a TSB.


See what I'm saying?   will post tommorow when I pull the ECM to see if it has those stickers its supposed to have.  (doubtful)


Chris

That right there proves that they lied to you.  First they told you they did it and then they told you that they didn't.  I would go to Timberline.  Ron Tonkin pisses me off.  >:(

Got my flash at town & country chrysler/jeep today.  They said it had not been done.


My EGR monitor that was being a little pain has already come back on, after I run it some miles we will see if this was my fix.


Chris

What??? You mean another dealership did it for you??  But Tonkin said...
Tonkin is pissing me off.  I may need to borrow that Shotguy DT (can I call you DT?)  They told him that as soon as he disconnected his battery that it would wipe out the flash update.  Retards.  I have had nothing but bad luck from them.
 >:(

God I hope all things straighten out.

Richard I read @ the DEQ website you only have to have 5/8 of those monitors working, so the two that were flashing when we hooked my code reader to your car are no big deal as far as passing DEQ is concered.

I have had 4/8 monitors functioning on a couple tries @ the DEQ... one more woulda done it LOL

Chris

Interesting... there goes my cat and my rear o2  ;D

How many freakin miles do I need to drive for these to come back on, or are they just not gonna come back on...?

It seems like it drives better so the update did something, but my EGR monitor is the only one that has come back on.

I freakin need ONE MORE to come on for it to pass DEQ.


Chris

Drive in town, on the freeway, in town some more, on the freeway some more, usually they say you have to drive it for about a week for everything to be on, I would say just drive it a lot in a few different conditions.

good luck
oh yeah, your injectors are in so come see me tomorrow.

This topic is CLOSED.

just for double clarification:

IT WAS THE INJECTOR.


Chris

Thats good, hey and a new alternator is about $150 exchange, new batteries start at 39.99  ;D
Yeah thats right, I talked to Byron, I know what happened.  :o

In our defense I was very loopy/not awake yet and He was hungover.   :(


plus who needs alternators anyways?  It made it from canby to oregon city and battery still tested at 12 volts after I shut it off
(volts would steadily drop while car was on though)

Das ist nicht gut!  That reminds me, hows your alt working out for you DT?

$3 fusible link that says ALTERNATOR CHOKE in the fusebox next to the cars computer =   FIXED    :)



Chris

Right on!

Just like to rub in what I said in my very first response to the topic.  You know just saying  ;)

May the bluebird of happiness fly up your nose, and the elephant of joy step on your toes.  ;D